How marketing leaders can get rid of ivory-tower-syndrome & do work that matters with Ken Demma
“You don’t get texture without digging in. And you need that texture to do your best work.”
Read time: 5 minutes
The following is a conversation with Ken Demma.
An executive, a practitioner, a professor, a leader & a student of the craft of marketing.
Ken is an “end-to-end, top-to-bottom” marketer full of hard-hitting truths from a long & successful career.
I think you’ll find a ton of value in this conversation.
First, tell readers about you. What’s your story?
I’ve held executive roles at AWS, SAP, American Express, and Fidelity & several consulting firms, worked on everything from software and investments to RV memberships and loyalty programs, from machine tools manufacturing to CPG categories, and even vending machines. I’ve also been a lecturer at Babson College for a decade and a half.
The single most determining factor in these roles (aside from the fantastic mentorship I’ve received) has been customer centricity.
Getting out of spreadsheets and into the customer’s real world.
I remember at American Express, we were up in this skyscraper in NYC (a literal tower). But the best insights didn't come from the ivory tower.
They came from being on the ground, having face-to-face interactions with customers.
That’s where the real magic happens. It transforms your work, takes it beyond the confines of an office, and honestly makes everything a lot easier.
Do you feel like marketers see customer centricity as this head-noddy type of thing everyone agrees on, but so few actually take it seriously? I definitely do.
I encourage VPs & CMOs (and anyone with pressure to lead and grow the business) to step down from the ivory tower and spend some time in the streets.
Just knowing customers “on paper” isn't enough.
The companies that succeed are the ones that listen, learn, and aren't afraid to switch things up based on what their customers are telling them.
How do you adjust messaging & positioning in reaction to market shifts and customer feedback?
Active listening, all the time.
And then there's this other thing I call latitude. It means giving ourselves room to adapt and change.
Markets are going to shift, and the ones with their eyes on the ball (the customer) will be the ones able to move with them.
But who “owns” the story? As products (and customers) evolve, who is responsible for keeping their stories & positioning fresh?
It's kind of everyone's job in the company.
Each person, no matter what they do, has a hand in shaping the customer experience. Even if it's indirect.
If there's a Chief Customer Officer, they're leading the charge. But really it boils down to the leadership setting the right tone.
Could you give me an example?
At SAP when we rolled out targeting models and buying predictions, we spent a lot of time teaching the sales folks about what these tools did and why they mattered.
We did internal webinars, newsletters, and one-on-one sessions. Plus, we’d create lists, tailored and ready for immediate use.
Initially, we did the heavy lifting for them – the fastest way to show them the tools’ worth and make it stick.
Our approach was treating the sales team as our internal customers. We were marketing these tools to them. And guess what?
This strategy paid off big time – we drove an incremental 400 million euros in SAP by empowering the sales team with the right tools and know-how.
But how do you make sure sales teams don’t find the marketing materials too fluffy or broad?
Salespeople are on the front lines, dealing with market realities every single day.
They can spot fluff a mile away.
The key is to craft your messaging as practical tools for the sales team, complete with how-to guides.
If your messaging is grounded in first-hand customer data and ongoing conversations with sales, it’s less likely to be fluffy.
It's about making sure what you provide is directly useful and relevant to their daily grind.
That’s one thing I do with client projects. Immediately ask to talk to sales because I need those insights to write copy that converts.
Exactly. This process of marketing & sales alignment benefits everyone in the business, including copywriters.
As it should.
So marketing is about building tools for everyone in the buying process?
Absolutely. In marketing, our role extends to developing a variety of tools that aid everyone involved in the buying process, and not just in the technological or analytical sense. These could be decision-making tools, resources to overcome objections, or strategies to solve problems.
Sales, customers, CS — they all need tools to facilitate purchase and renewal process.
Be that marketer and say hello to job security and a thriving book of business.
How would you describe customer insights to be the foundation of marketing?
So think less like concrete and more like... something squishy, like gelatin.
Businesses just can't stick to one rigid way of understanding their customers. Being open to continuous learning and shifting based on what customers are saying is key.
Marketing should really be a hub for all things customer-related. A part of the job is guiding the whole company, making sure everyone's on the same page with what's actually happening in the market.
What’s the best way for marketing leaders to see themselves?
Marketers should see their role as kind of a facilitator – making it easier for customers to go from just knowing about us to actually buying and then even becoming advocates for the brand.
What makes a successful B2B SaaS marketing leader in the next decade?
Constantly prove how your work is paying off financially for the company.
Evolve aggressively – listen, learn, and stay open to new ideas.
Top football teams move together but are always ready to change the game plan. Marketers should do the same.
What about shipping lots of good work?
One time I posted on LinkedIn about “hanging out with customers”. The reaction to this simple concept was huge. It even landed me a new business opportunity because someone wanted “the guy who spends time with customers” on their team.
So yeah, ship good work even when you don’t have to.
How can marketers bridge the gap between “getting attention” and facilitating the purchase/renewal process?
Think of your sales and customer success teams as your clients.
There are countless tactics, channels, lead gen strategies.
But if making life easier for sales and customer success is your guiding star, you're on track to do meaningful work.
Should marketers involve sales & CS & CX teams in building out messaging & positioning?
Absolutely, it's crucial.
Each team brings a perspective that deepens our positioning. By including these views, we ensure our positioning reflects our company culture and resonates with customer needs.
These teams are in the thick of it, hearing straight from customers, providing insights we couldn’t find elsewhere. Authenticity? This is how it's really built – from the data and stories they bring to the table.
Any final thoughts?
As a marketer, you're essentially an understander and anticipator of customer needs. Use all the tools at your disposal: analytics, listening, anecdotes, attitudes, and behaviors. Convert these into messaging and actions that make customers feel valued, heard, and supported. Nail that, and everything else tends to fall into place.
Thanks for reading!